Noseweight advice

DaveAldi replied on 22/10/2017 12:38

Posted on 22/10/2017 12:38

I tow a 2013 Coachman Pastiche 560/4 with a MTPLM of 1630kgs. I've recently changed my towcar from a Hyundai Santa Fe (Kerbweight 1977kgs and max noseweight 100kgs) to a Skoda Kodiaq Edition 4x4 (Kerbweight 1798kgs and max noseweight 80kgs). Considering the Kodiaq is the current towcar of the year I have been very disappointed with the towing stability of my outfit and despite careful loading and checking of tyre pressures I've had a few episodes of snaking (between 50 and 60 mph in the absence of strong winds), including one event where the car's towing stability assist activated the ABS to bring it under control. The caravan is fitted with ATC and an Al-Ko stabiliser hitch.


I purchased a noseweight gauge and found that the noseweight of my Coachman when totally emptied for winter (apart from two standard gas bottles in the front locker) was over 100kgs.


Please can anyone offer advice, firstly on whether I'm expecting too much of my towcar at a 90% match (bearing in mind I have 30 years towing experience) and secondly whether it's normal to have to remove gas bottles and add "ballast" behind the axle of an empty caravan to reduce the noseweight to an acceptable level. If I remove the gas bottles from the front locker, where is the safest place to carry them?


Thanks in advance to anyone with useful advice.

 

Lutz replied on 03/11/2017 06:25

Posted on 02/11/2017 22:47 by weedkiller

Nose weight is but one factor which contributes to the stability of an outfit.   Information which the club could easily supply at the time of a tow car test or T.C.O.Y.  i.e.  The Tow ball height prior to hitching , the height when hitched up. The nose weight of the un ballasted van

 These have an effect as of course does loading. Other design factors both of the car and van also have an effect e.g.  Rear overhang on the car.

    It would also help when choosing a tow car to know the distance from the tow ball to the rear of the car.

Posted on 03/11/2017 06:25

True, noseweight is only one factor of many and there are lots more that you haven't mentioned such as tyre pressures, fitment of shock absorbers on the caravan, load distribution in both the caravan and the car, etc., but towball height is not one of them.

lornalou1 replied on 03/11/2017 11:40

Posted on 02/11/2017 19:39 by

 I have no faith in CC's matching. Try here. https://towcar.info

Posted on 03/11/2017 11:40

I'm with you on that one EasyT. I have emailed the clubs so called matching service twice about my vehicles weight being totally wrong and never had a reply, even when i spoke to them at the NEC show. towcar/info is the most accurate of them all.

weedkiller replied on 03/11/2017 21:16

Posted on 03/11/2017 06:25 by Lutz

True, noseweight is only one factor of many and there are lots more that you haven't mentioned such as tyre pressures, fitment of shock absorbers on the caravan, load distribution in both the caravan and the car, etc., but towball height is not one of them.

Posted on 03/11/2017 21:16

tow ball height has an effect on the tendency of an outfit to be susceptible to pitching. particularly with a low nose weight .  

 

Lutz replied on 03/11/2017 21:25

Posted on 03/11/2017 21:16 by weedkiller

tow ball height has an effect on the tendency of an outfit to be susceptible to pitching. particularly with a low nose weight .  

 

Posted on 03/11/2017 21:25

If the noseweight is set correctly with the coupling at the actual height when hooked up, thus compensating for any variances in towball height, it doesn't make any difference how high or low the towball is. Why should it?

weedkiller replied on 05/11/2017 22:51

Posted on 05/11/2017 22:51

The higher the tow ball height the nearer the van becomes to its point of equilibrium. Dynamic nose weight when moving is different to static vertical weight . Road conditions wind pressures loading speed passing lorries lateral body movement about the chassis tyre pressures outfit suspension et al. As an empiric example quite some years ago I had a detachable tow bar fitted which was at the top end of the height  spec but the outfit was level

the outfit stability was not good when this was queried a different tow bar was fitted which resulted in a slight nose down attitude result much improved stability the only difference between the two tow bars was a different detachable tow ball the only reason for changing the complete tow bar was to ensure conformity and to prevent any possible warranty issues.  

replied on 05/11/2017 22:59

Posted on 05/11/2017 22:59

The higher the tow ball height the nearer the van becomes to its point of equilibrium.

If the down force at that height is 80kg on the towball then the van is no closer to its equilibrium than if it was 80kg at a lower height as long as the weight is measured at the actual towball height when hitched.

Cornersteady replied on 06/11/2017 13:20

Posted on 05/11/2017 22:51 by weedkiller

The higher the tow ball height the nearer the van becomes to its point of equilibrium. Dynamic nose weight when moving is different to static vertical weight . Road conditions wind pressures loading speed passing lorries lateral body movement about the chassis tyre pressures outfit suspension et al. As an empiric example quite some years ago I had a detachable tow bar fitted which was at the top end of the height  spec but the outfit was level

the outfit stability was not good when this was queried a different tow bar was fitted which resulted in a slight nose down attitude result much improved stability the only difference between the two tow bars was a different detachable tow ball the only reason for changing the complete tow bar was to ensure conformity and to prevent any possible warranty issues.  

Posted on 06/11/2017 13:20

The higher the tow ball height the nearer the van becomes to its point of equilibrium

I'm really not sure what you mean by this very loose term or indeed how nearer the van becomes to to it by moving the height of the tow ball or hitch? do you mean the point at which the caravan is in equilibrium? where the net sum of all the forces is zero? that is it's centre of mass or gravity, not usually referred to as the point of equilibrium?

If so this centre of mass (gravity) is somewhere near the axle horizontally and (I have no idea but) anywhere up to a third of the caravan's height vertically from the ground. 

If you raise or lower the hitch from the ground the caravan will pivot around the axle and the hitch therefore moves in a circle around the axle and the centre of mass will also move in a similar circle. 

How does it get any nearer it's centre of mass?

weedkiller replied on 06/11/2017 21:42

Posted on 06/11/2017 21:42

If you raise or lower the hitch from the ground the caravan will pivot around the axle and the hitch therefore moves in a circle around the axle and the centre of mass will also move in a similar circle. 

a very apt description of what can happen when for whatever reason the nose weight albeit temporarily becomes less than its static weight.

replied on 06/11/2017 21:50

Posted on 06/11/2017 21:50

Some truth but totally irrelevant since noseweight is measured at towball height of connected outfit and that is the height that it stays at during towing.

Cornersteady replied on 07/11/2017 07:31

Posted on 06/11/2017 21:42 by weedkiller

If you raise or lower the hitch from the ground the caravan will pivot around the axle and the hitch therefore moves in a circle around the axle and the centre of mass will also move in a similar circle. 

a very apt description of what can happen when for whatever reason the nose weight albeit temporarily becomes less than its static weight.

Posted on 07/11/2017 07:31

Could you give some examples of how nose weight can change during transit? As nose weight is a moment (turning force) either the distance from the centre of mass would have to changed, this could happen when the hitch is compressed (by a cm or two?) or by things moving significantly about in the caravan and altering the centre of mass? Any more? The hitch and tow ball are connected (or should be) and move together so I would say the nose weight is pretty much fixed even if the whole outfit takes off over a bump? 

and you haven't answered how and what do you mean by :

The higher the tow ball height the nearer the van becomes to its point of equilibrium

 

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