One in a million electrical faults

Snowy1 replied on 09/07/2016 21:46

Posted on 09/07/2016 21:46

At some time, we must all of heard about a vehicle electrical fault that appears to be a "One in a million fault" the sort of fault which garages/dealers are unable to find and fully cure. In many cases they only manage to temporary cure and the fault returns. During my time I have undertaken a few such faults and thus far managed to fully diagnose them, maybe more luck than judgement to say the least. Some members who are very electrically minded may find my recent such event quite interesting especially when I explain the cause of the fault.

A motorcyclist had a charging problem with his motorcycle, the alternator (3 phase, delta windings, permanent magnet type) was undercharging but this was not a straightforward fault.

The motorcycle had been taken to several dealers for rectification of the fault, a new alternator stator, regulator/rectifier unit and motorcycle wiring harness had been fitted by these dealers and the owner was told that the fault was cured upon collecting the motorcycle on each occasion, but each time a few days later the battery would run down yet again.

The owner was recomended to bring the motorcycle to myself for diagnoses of the fault. Under the circumstances I felt sorry for the owner and took the job on with no charge, i.e. parts only if used. Symptoms of the fault were as follows; At tickover, the alternator was balancing the electrical loadings with the headlight on and still showing a 3 amp charge. When the engine speed was increased the charging rate decreased (opposite to what should normally happen) and when the engine reaches 3000 RPM the alternators output totally terminates even though there is still a heavy electrical demand at this time.

I must admit, this one had me pulling my hair out but I applied one of my old time theories; "If there is a fault, there must be a cause, as there is a cause, it must be curable" in other words, in my book, there is no such thing as cannot be done or rectified.

After a long detailed investigation I found that the motorcycles electronic ignition unit (often reffered to as a CDI unit) was at fault. One could say; what has the motorcycles' electronic ignition unit got to do with the alternators output and regulation?

Well this is what was happening; The motorcycles' electronic ignition unit was functioning correctly as in allowing the engine to run and function correctly even electronically advancing and retarding the ignition between; 10° BTDC and 40° BTDC at 3000 RPM, but something had gone wrong electronically inside said unit and it was emitting electrical pulses into the motorcycles wiring harness which was effecting the alternators' electronically controlled regulator/rectifier unit causing it to totally shut down when the motorcycles engine was fully advanced at 3000 RMP.

An interesting one to say the least

Colin 

Snowy1 replied on 10/07/2016 21:16

Posted on 10/07/2016 21:16

Yamaha YZR, I think it's a 600cc, as the dealers had no idea of the cause, it could be a one in a million fault, that maybe why it appears not to be documented as you have said.

Colin

EmilysDad replied on 10/07/2016 23:22

Posted on 10/07/2016 23:22

Blimey Richard!  A CB175? That's going back a bit. I used to have it's poor relation ie  CD175, but that was about 35 yrs ago ;-)

Nuggy replied on 11/07/2016 15:29

Posted on 11/07/2016 15:29

When I advanced or retarded the ignition on my bikes I pulled or pushed a chrome lever on the handle bars, am I showing my age?  Embarassed

tombar replied on 11/07/2016 16:17

Posted on 11/07/2016 16:17

At some time, we must all of heard about a vehicle electrical fault that appears to be a "One in a million fault" the sort of fault which garages/dealers are unable to find and fully cure. In many cases they only manage to temporary cure and the fault returns. During my time I have undertaken a few such faults and thus far managed to fully diagnose them, maybe more luck than judgement to say the least. Some members who are very electrically minded may find my recent such event quite interesting especially when I explain the cause of the fault.

A motorcyclist had a charging problem with his motorcycle, the alternator (3 phase, delta windings, permanent magnet type) was undercharging but this was not a straightforward fault.

The motorcycle had been taken to several dealers for rectification of the fault, a new alternator stator, regulator/rectifier unit and motorcycle wiring harness had been fitted by these dealers and the owner was told that the fault was cured upon collecting the motorcycle on each occasion, but each time a few days later the battery would run down yet again.

The owner was recomended to bring the motorcycle to myself for diagnoses of the fault. Under the circumstances I felt sorry for the owner and took the job on with no charge, i.e. parts only if used. Symptoms of the fault were as follows; At tickover, the alternator was balancing the electrical loadings with the headlight on and still showing a 3 amp charge. When the engine speed was increased the charging rate decreased (opposite to what should normally happen) and when the engine reaches 3000 RPM the alternators output totally terminates even though there is still a heavy electrical demand at this time.

I must admit, this one had me pulling my hair out but I applied one of my old time theories; "If there is a fault, there must be a cause, as there is a cause, it must be curable" in other words, in my book, there is no such thing as cannot be done or rectified.

After a long detailed investigation I found that the motorcycles electronic ignition unit (often reffered to as a CDI unit) was at fault. One could say; what has the motorcycles' electronic ignition unit got to do with the alternators output and regulation?

Well this is what was happening; The motorcycles' electronic ignition unit was functioning correctly as in allowing the engine to run and function correctly even electronically advancing and retarding the ignition between; 10° BTDC and 40° BTDC at 3000 RPM, but something had gone wrong electronically inside said unit and it was emitting electrical pulses into the motorcycles wiring harness which was effecting the alternators' electronically controlled regulator/rectifier unit causing it to totally shut down when the motorcycles engine was fully advanced at 3000 RMP.

An interesting one to say the least

Colin 

After "At some time...", my eyes start glazingUndecided.  Hope its not made into a film Colin

EmilysDad replied on 11/07/2016 18:04

Posted on 11/07/2016 18:04

When I advanced or retarded the ignition on my bikes I pulled or pushed a chrome lever on the handle bars, am I showing my age?  Embarassed

...not at all ..... Innocent

RichardPitman replied on 11/07/2016 20:13

Posted on 11/07/2016 20:13

Blimey Richard!  A CB175? That's going back a bit. I used to have it's poor relation ie  CD175, but that was about 35 yrs ago ;-)

I had a new one back in the early '70's, rebuilt this US imported one (started life as a CL175) a couple of winters ago.

 photo cb_175_zpsqy0vaioz.jpg




Nuggy replied on 11/07/2016 22:22

Posted on 11/07/2016 22:22

When I advanced or retarded the ignition on my bikes I pulled or pushed a chrome lever on the handle bars, am I showing my age?  Embarassed

...not at all ..... Innocent

Write your comments here...Thank you MM

RichardPitman replied on 11/07/2016 22:36

Posted on 11/07/2016 22:36

The photo of the 175cc, there should be an Everoak peaked helmet on the seat.

My Bell open face ( jet ) helmet was on my head when I took that photo, closest thing I could find to the Stadium jet helmet I wore back in the day. Oddly enough, I did have an Everoak, but that one was an early full face.

These days,  I keep my Arai full face for use on the 600.

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