Electric car charging on Club sites

David K I got page not found when I looked via latest activity? Is everything visible now.

Redkite, useful info!!

I think you are referring to me suggesting that perhaps metering and charging electric vehicles are two different things.

Hybrid and ev cars may be in the minority as yet but that will change over the next few years. The Club seems to have recognised that to some extent as I believe they are installing charging stations in some car parks. This is in line with many organisations, e.g. supermarkets with charging points. These are facilities offered to be attractive to customers. I think this will need to spread to all large sites eventually. I am not convinced that charging through your unit is a good idea at all. The bigger problem will be charging electric camper vans as they come onto the market, and they are on the way.

Payment for the electricity is clearly the responsibility of the vehicle owner. The installation of the infrastructure is like all other infrastructure, site owner decides what their customers want, what they want to provide, and the costs are passed on to site fees. On a facility site I pay for shower and toilet facilities I don’t use, the same will be true of vehicle charging infrastructure.

For the avoidance of confusion we are motorhomers so don’t tow (any more), and don’t need to charge a tow car. Our car is a full ev, which we charge at home through a dedicated charging point.

The Club purports to be "green" but charge a huge fee to charge an electric car.  A MH owner can take a MH and a car and not pay any additional fee but have made journeys that are far more polluting .  In my mid it should be the other way round.

CT said:

I raised the charging price with Off-Gem, in the context of their latest guide on EV charging costs, and they ruled that charging for more than the cost price of electricity when using a granny lead was against the terms of resale, and put this to the club. The club have chosen to ignore the rules under the idea that caravans are not a "domestic setting", even though they were deemed so by Off-Gem several years ago.

Do Ofgem have the legal powers to adjudicate on the definition of "domestic setting"? "Latest guide" is precisely that - a guide. And if they do, who defines "domestic setting"? Same people who are totally unable to define "Sustainable"?

The club are not reselling electricity though, are they? As there is no monitoring of Kwh usage by EV owners how can you accuse the club of breaching the Ofgem guidelines? You are being charged for the convenience of plugging your car in next to your caravan and putting as much electricity into it as you like - instead of having to find a public charging point that works.

Nor can you expect the site wardens to be experts in battery capacity, charging times and charging volumes of Kwh's., as suggested elsewhere in this thread. Surely that is beyond their remit.

Can I have a diesel pump on site please?

Hi Nutsy, 

Do Ofgem have the legal powers to adjudicate on the definition of "domestic setting"? "Latest guide" is precisely that - a guide. And if they do, who defines "domestic setting"? Same people who are totally unable to define "Sustainable"?

Yes they have the legal authority to define "domestic setting" but they can't hold an entity in breach to account, that is a job for the courts. The "guide" is a document that is designed to help businesses understand the legislation and stay on the right side of the law. It's quite readable, quite interesting and available here. As the governing body for electricity supply appointed by parliament, they make the rules. 

The club are not reselling electricity though, are they? As there is no monitoring of Kwh usage by EV owners how can you accuse the club of breaching the Ofgem guidelines? You are being charged for the convenience of plugging your car in next to your caravan and putting as much electricity into it as you like - instead of having to find a public charging point that works.

For EV charging, the club ARE selling electricity. It is a paid for service that is specifically associated with EV charging and outside of the cost of the pitch. If included in pitch cost, there would be no resale, but this is no longer the case. There is no monitoring by the club of kWh used by each owner, but that is part of the problem. Rather that plugging in and "putting as much electricty into it as you like" there are constraints; for PHEVs the size of the battery being one, and the rate of delivery being another. As per HB, the OP, his battery is 11kWh. Filling the entire battery results in a cost of around 80p per kWh, well above the (supposed) rate paid for by the club. For myself (with a full EV) it's a different story, as I can potentially consume much more - but will be limited by the delivery model. 

Yes - this is a convenience service, and one that is appreciated by me (used with my PHEV when it cost £1, and with my EV at £8), but it still has to be a service sold within the law. 

Nor can you expect the site wardens to be experts in battery capacity, charging times and charging volumes of Kwh's., as suggested elsewhere in this thread. Surely that is beyond their remit.

There is no request to have the wardens measure the amount used, nor understand battery sizes. The request is for the club (at a national level) to recognise that reselling electricity for any purpose (in this case it happens to be charging a car) is only legal if the rate is no higher than the purchase cost. In this case, the model that the club has chosen puts them in breach of the resale of electricity regulations.

Can I have a diesel pump on site please?

I know your comment is flippant, but it deserves a sensible response. One of the big perks of an electric vehicle (PHEV or BEV) is the ability to charge it anywhere there is a robust power supply. When I arrive anywhere there is power, and I can sensibly use some (for free or at an appropriate cost) I will do so. If my car is sitting still doing nothing else, it might as well be charging saving me the effort of having to go and find some charging else where later.

I carry a power meter with me that allows me to measure just how much I am using, and determine the cost so that I can either pay or make a contribution to cover my costs. I used this method very successfully (with prior permission) at the last CL I visited, even though the CL specifically forbade the the charging of EVs. I was able to demonstrate to the owner that I was not interested in ripping them off, but using the supply for the convenience factor, and at no cost to them. I have done the same over the last 5 years of EV and PHEV towing whenever possible. 

So - can you have a diesel pump on site - probably not, as its not core to the running of a site. Can you leverage what IS core to a hookup enabled site for powering your vehicle - if you have an EV, yes.

Hi CT

Ok, I note what you say, but surely then the club is acting illegally in charging within the pitch fee for usage of electricity in a caravan- they do differentiate pitch prices for non EHU pitches. IMHO it is absolute nonsense for Ofgem to suggest that a touring caravan site is a "domestic setting" - interesting that Ofgem have not tested this through the courts, which suggests that they know they would lose - or they don't know the difference between a touring site and one with permanent homes.

I would also argue that having EV charging is not core to the running of the site. Whilst I clearly have no stats, I would suggest that EV owners form a tiny minority of C & MC members - maybe a few more PHEV's but again not that many.

You like your EV, fair enough but it is clear from other threads on here that the vast majority have no intention of switching to EV's for towing for many reasons - mostly the fact that they are totally impractical for most of us. In my case there isn't an EV built that could tow my 1850KG t/a 'van and nor would I wish to have to do the planning ahead that you do to get to my destination. Then of course there is the cost of EV's, which are out of the reach of many of us.

I seriously believe that HMG's obsession with EV's will ultimately wreck our economy, and probably result in the collapse of the C & MC amongst many other businesses. Don't be surprised if the 2030 deadline is extended.

Someone commented earlier in this thread that the C&CC club are more enlightened - maybe the simple answer is that an EV is more condusive to carrying a tent than towing a caravan

Hi Nutsy, 

Ok, I note what you say, but surely then the club is acting illegally in charging within the pitch fee for usage of electricity in a caravan- they do differentiate pitch prices for non EHU pitches. IMHO it is absolute nonsense for Ofgem to suggest that a touring caravan site is a "domestic setting" - interesting that Ofgem have not tested this through the courts, which suggests that they know they would lose - or they don't know the difference between a touring site and one with permanent homes.

Charging of electricity when it is fully included in a pitch fee is not resale. If all electricty is a part of the holiday accommodation fee (pitch fee in this case) it is outside of the scope of resale. This has been clarified in law since 2002 (See here, pp10-11, and p24). " the MRP applies for domestic use, or for use in any form of accommodation (including that used for holidays). In this context, we consider a touring caravan would be subject to the MRP when it’s taking power at a commercial caravan site, unless an inclusive charge were made for accommodation with no specified charge for electricity."

I would also argue that having EV charging is not core to the running of the site. Whilst I clearly have no stats, I would suggest that EV owners form a tiny minority of C & MC members - maybe a few more PHEV's but again not that many.

Of course I fully agree with you. Charging EVs is no more core to the club than providing diesel or petrol pumps. I was suggesting that providing EHU to pitches IS core to the club, and that since an EV is just an electrical appliance, charging one where there is a 3 pin socket with robust 6A supply is possible. However, by singling out EV charging via the 3pin socket on your outfit for an extra charge, the club have both made EV charging a part of the business AND inadvertently strayed into the mire of electricity resale and the MRP cap. Had the club chosen to just deploy dedicated EV chargers, the MRP cap would have been a non-issue as dedicated charging infrastructure is not subject to MRP. 

You like your EV, fair enough but it is clear from other threads on here that the vast majority have no intention of switching to EV's for towing for many reasons - mostly the fact that they are totally impractical for most of us. In my case there isn't an EV built that could tow my 1850KG t/a 'van and nor would I wish to have to do the planning ahead that you do to get to my destination. Then of course there is the cost of EV's, which are out of the reach of many of us.

There are several EVs on the market today that can tow an 1850kG 'van. And the real issue discussed in this thread is with PHEVs (like the Landrover, RangeRover PHEV series, Ford KUGA PHEV, Rav 4 PHEV, Outlander PHEV and Volvo XC PHEV series) which are all more than capable of towing your van. But I agree that using one is not for everyone. Range, cost and other factors are personal choices. However, none of that has any bearing on the clubs responsibility to sell services in accordance with the law. Let's imagine you like beer or wine, and the club shop started selling bottles without an off-license at an illegally inflated price. Would you have cause for concern? As a hypothetical drinker, maybe you would. As a hypothetical t-totaler, maybe you wouldn't. But the selling would still be illegal. 

I seriously believe that HMG's obsession with EV's will ultimately wreck our economy, and probably result in the collapse of the C & MC amongst many other businesses. Don't be surprised if the 2030 deadline is extended.

Your belief and mine (which you will be unsurprised to learn is polar opposite) are of little consequence, and indeed are irrelevant to this thread on the costs of charging PHEV and EV, which is a matter of legislation. 

Someone commented earlier in this thread that the C&CC club are more enlightened - maybe the simple answer is that an EV is more condusive to carrying a tent than towing a caravan.

Or maybe given the 2nd C in C&CC is "caravanning"  it has nothing to do with the validity of using an EV for either camping or caravanning, and has everything to do with the choices made by the leadership. I couldn't wish for a better tow car - my personal choice. 

Nutsy it was me that said the C&CC were more enlightened regarding EVs on sites, so those with EVs now have a choice pay £9 extra on a CAMC site or go elsewhere eg C&CC. I know which organisation I'd choose and it would be great to have less pollution on sites too.

CT & Brue

All noted. I think we have to agree to disagree on many points, although I am surprised at the law surrounding the definition of domestic accommodation - although of course as this was 2002, BEV's were not even a glint in the politicians eyes. Perhaps in this case the law is an ass and needs updating. Dare I suggest that by charging differential (cheaper) rates for non EHU pitches the club are technically breaking the law, as they are specifically charging extra for the leccie on EHU pitches?

Also noted re PHEV's and towing - I know this, I was specifically referring to BEV's. 

Hi Nutsy, 

All noted. I think we have to agree to disagree on many points, 

I think the only point we disagree on is the impact of the uptake of EVs on the economy. The rest is just fact. 

although I am surprised at the law surrounding the definition of domestic accommodation - although of course as this was 2002, BEV's were not even a glint in the politicians eyes.

The 2002 legislation clarified that caravans on a commercial (i.e.paid for) site counted as "accommodation" under which the MRP cap applies, unless the electricty cost is fully include in the pitch fee. 

Perhaps in this case the law is an ass and needs updating. Dare I suggest that by charging differential (cheaper) rates for non EHU pitches the club are technically breaking the law, as they are specifically charging extra for the leccie on EHU pitches?

The cost IS included in the pitch fee for an EHU pitch - you can use as much or as little as you like, its all included. There is no charge for the electricity. On a non-EHU pitch there is no electricity included (and obviously no bollard).

The problem with the PHEV and EV charging cost is there is now a specific charge for electricity use on the pitch which is unmetered. This enables the situation where the user is being charged a specific amount (£9) for electricity where the amount used is undefined. If only 1kWh is consumed, then the user paid £9 per kWh, which is an illegal breach of the MRP.  In the eyes of the law, an EV charging through a domestic socket (3 pin plug - which is a condition of the CMCs usage) is an appliance - much like a fan heater. Electricity cannot be charged for above the MRP for running an appliance in this setting (holiday accommodation). 

Also noted re PHEV's and towing - I know this, I was specifically referring to BEV's. 

There are a number of BEVs available in the uk that can tow 1850Kg or more. Granted - they are expensive, as they are big cars, and mostly luxury end of the market. Hopefully that will continue to change. And of course, just because they are there does not mean anyone has to use one. Personal choice is still allowed.