CL Sites

At that price even with 100% occupancy every day of the year (never!) the Annual takings without VAT could not exceed £24K. Is a £24K P/A business required to be VAT registered?

A CL might form part of a business where income incurs VAT.

Yes of coarse. A CL can be, but it doesn't have to be. If the CL is part of a larger business the expenditure recovery of VAT can be quite advantageous to the larger business. However the VAT on sales (visitors) is recovered from the visitor.

I think Ted, at Cholsey Grange, has put some interesting information on here regarding running a CL and he's also involved with the Club and can speak on behalf of CL owners. I've stayed at Cholsey Grange and I also understand the business point of view. We're lucky to have this direct contact on CT and from other CL owners too. How they run their businesses or their enterprises will be varied.

The OP was asking for opinions from members about what they like or would like to see on CLs.

Thank you all for your comments they have given us food for thought and we also appreciate the other comments as to price etc.   

When we started this thread we certainly didn't expect the comments to get quite so lengthy and diverse, just shows you where a conversation can lead to!! 

If you're ever this way, please give us a try (as some of you have or are going to)!

Jo & Dave 

What is the limit nowadays for VAT registration? 

By the way £16 x 5 x 365 = £29,200😋

It would have to be a very exceptional CL, in an outstanding location for us to pay £20 per night. But with CLs, we are not looking for miniature Club Sites with everything provided. We have found Farm based CLs, and older established CLs to be excellent value. Many of the farms have the equipment and knowledge on site to carry out much of the infrastructure work required to set up, or expand services. 

There does seem to be some variation in charges around the country as well. We have in the past found North Wales rather expensive, but have found some very reasonably priced CLs in South Wales. Both lovely areas. A number of Farm based sites we use have now got planning permission for adjacent extra pitches. We stayed on a very nice one in Shropshire last month. He had put in a further ten seasonal pitches, all with metered electric, and visitors were telling us there was a waiting list for pitches! We paid £15 per night on CL area there, with lovely heated showers, loos, wash rooms, electric included, individual tap and a drain for grey water on each pitch. All HS as well.

An interesting debate.

Nellie, thanks for explaining the pricing of the site you were using as an example.  

I would guess that once they become established, have a good number of decent reviews under their belt and can demonstrate that they provide a better experience than other local competitors they may feel justified in raising their price.  At the moment their price is probably artificially low, in order to build business.   

With regard to Dave’s comment about ‘boys toys’ I hardly think so! My most precious commodity (as I have another job) is time.  I like to mow the pitching area on our CL between 11am a 12 noon (changeover time) as the chances are there will be fewer vans on site and being mid-day is likely to be dry on a rain-free day.  With my ride-on it takes 30 minutes and looks neat & tidy with no clippings evident.  In the Summer the mowing needs to be done (as it’s a mulching mower) twice or maybe three times a week.  The rest of the field is left as a meadow for dog-walking and room for kids to play.

Regarding VAT you will find that most CL’s operate outside the VAT threshold. However a number of farms (like us) might choose to register for VAT.  Some years we are nett beneficiaries of this arrangement (ie we end up recovering more from HMRC than we pay, other years we aren’t). This depends on how much we invest in plant, machinery and infrastructure for the farm.  But I don’t think this is an appropriate forum to discuss VAT rules, it’s up to each CL to choose this.

Regarding Occupancy and projected income, as was stated it's actually impossible to be 100% full unless you have a stipulated change-over day and week-long bookings.  

Speaking from experience, achieving more than 60% occupancy is highly unlikely between Easter and October. In the Low season it’s more likely to be 20%.  Then you have to factor-in late cancellations and early-departures which probably knock 5% or more off your projected occupancy. So those thinking you can make more than £20K on a seasonal CL are in cloud-cuckoo land.  The reality is that most CL’s will struggle to make £5K and the best seasonal CL’s might make £10K.  Exceptional CL’s that are open all year might achieve £15K if they are lucky.

What probably hasn't been computed by many CL visitors is the time each owner spends managing a CL.

On average I'd think it takes me an hour to 'process' each visitor when I take into account; taking the booking, doing welcome sheets, saying hello on arrival, taking meter-readings for the EHU, advising on where visitors might go locally (National Trust, good Pubs etc.), taking their payment balance and then all the back-office functions such as book-keeping, VAT, banking, answering booking enquiries, chasing deposit payments and so on.  Sometimes, if I have to hear about the visitor’s mother-in-law and her bunions or why their water-heater isn’t working, it can take a lot, lot longer!

On top of the 'per-visitor' time is the day-to-day regular site mowing, sorting the recycling (often in the wrong bins - despite clear instructions), maintaining hedges, gateways, taps, CDP, wheeling the bins to the bin-men etc. keeping the information leaflets topped-up & providing levelling blocks (which have a habit of walking) and keeping an eye on the Reviews posted on the CAMC site.

And then the occasional tow-on / off situations, repairing the damage to grass caused by over-use of awning ground-sheets / motorhomes etc.  helping elderly visitors who can't manoeuvre or pitch their caravans, helping visitors with tools / tapes / glues to mend their cars or caravans, asking their kids (3X) not to throw sticks for our dogs, arranging dog-sitting for their dogs etc. etc.

Oh, I nearly forgot the 'drop-in' Members who like to drive out into the countryside and visit CL's they 'might' visit and would like a tour of the CL.

In the off-season, I'll be renewing our CL Public Liability Insurance, updating the circular-alk maps, arranging the EHU testing, ensuring the Club website has our correct details and photos, updating our own website and booking system and getting the mower serviced for next season.   

I’m not moaning.  I really enjoy running the CL and meeting my visitors.  They are all lovely and I enjoy sharing our farm with them and recommending other local businesses that they might support.  If I didn’t enjoy it I wouldn’t do it.  But it is a job, it’s not a hobby.  What rate-per-hour do you think we CL owners should value our time at?

Now I'm listing it out, I wonder where we find the time as although I (luckily) work from home I have a full-time job.  Thankfully my wife shares the load on a lot of these tasks.

So, before you think we CL owners just mow a bit of grass once a week for £10/night and it’s easy money, you might like to offer your favourite CL to 'warden' their CL for a weekend and see a bit of what's involved.  I know that Phil at Bow Hill Farm - who at £27.50/night and has good occupancy - has done the maths!

Better still, buy some land and open up your own CL. It can be fun, but it is a commitment. The Club are keen to have more, especially those run by active members who have caravans or motorhomes. However, I’d caution you to think long and hard before investing your pension-pot into a CL.  You might never get away from it, not all your customers will be charming, and your return on investment might be a long time coming.   

Dave, If you’d like to come and mow a pitch for me with your hand-push mower you are more than welcome, it might save me a few minutes!!   

My last two customers of the season arrive today and I’m hoping for a break now until it all starts again at Easter.  I’m pleased to say that my customers think we are good value for money and we have a high number of repeat visitors.  Brue, you'd be most welcome to come and see us again.

I look forwards to 2018 and trust that the Club will continue to support the CL network and it’s hard-working owners, and handful of whom will be joining me at the Club AGM on Saturday.  Come and meet us!

A very comprehensive description of running of a CL. You MUST pay yourself the minimum wage 😉. Don't do the sums you'll frighten yourself 😂😂. We haven't visited you yet, but are hoping to in due course.  We love the CL network, thank you all for your hard work.

Bakers2 - We look forwards to meeting you.  Thank you for your support.   

Correction : I hit send a little early on the long post above, on reflection my figure of 20% occupancy in the low months might be optimistic, I need to do some additional research with my fellow CL owners who are open all year.